Comments on: Of saints and sinners http://razarumi.com/2009/01/02/of-saints-and-sinners/ Just another WordPress site Mon, 06 Feb 2012 08:58:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Clemmie Rakoski http://razarumi.com/2009/01/02/of-saints-and-sinners/#comment-37844 Clemmie Rakoski Fri, 03 Feb 2012 00:25:36 +0000 http://www.razarumi.com/?p=1252#comment-37844 Very good website you have here but I was curious about if you knew of any community forums that cover the same topics discussed in this article? I'd really love to be a part of group where I can get suggestions from other experienced people that share the same interest. If you have any recommendations, please let me know. Appreciate it! Very good website you have here but I was curious about if you knew of any community forums that cover the same topics discussed in this article? I’d really love to be a part of group where I can get suggestions from other experienced people that share the same interest. If you have any recommendations, please let me know. Appreciate it!

]]> By: knockoffs http://razarumi.com/2009/01/02/of-saints-and-sinners/#comment-37695 knockoffs Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:25:22 +0000 http://www.razarumi.com/?p=1252#comment-37695 I wanted to thank you a whole lot a lot more for this wonderful web-site you have created here. It truly is full of valuable tips for those that are genuinely interested in this topic, specifically this quite post. Your all truly sweet plus thoughtful of other people as properly as reading your site posts can be a fantastic delight in my experience. And what a generous reward! Mary and I will undoubtedly have fun making use of your guidelines in what we should do in some weeks. Our checklist is really a mile long which indicates that your ideas may be put to excellent use. I wanted to thank you a whole lot a lot more for this wonderful web-site you have created here. It truly is full of valuable tips for those that are genuinely interested in this topic, specifically this quite post. Your all truly sweet plus thoughtful of other people as properly as reading your site posts can be a fantastic delight in my experience. And what a generous reward! Mary and I will undoubtedly have fun making use of your guidelines in what we should do in some weeks. Our checklist is really a mile long which indicates that your ideas may be put to excellent use.

]]> By: Ingrid http://razarumi.com/2009/01/02/of-saints-and-sinners/#comment-33700 Ingrid Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:08:56 +0000 http://www.razarumi.com/?p=1252#comment-33700 Hey, Nice Blog. I like it very much.Very useful Information. Will come to your blog again. Nice greetings from Austria peter Hey,
Nice Blog. I like it very much.Very useful Information. Will come to your blog again.

Nice greetings from Austria

peter

]]> By: ajit wadnerkar http://razarumi.com/2009/01/02/of-saints-and-sinners/#comment-9429 ajit wadnerkar Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:34:16 +0000 http://www.razarumi.com/?p=1252#comment-9429 very good article...razabhai shikriya.... very good article…razabhai
shikriya….

]]> By: Jim Leff's Slog: Popular Sufism http://razarumi.com/2009/01/02/of-saints-and-sinners/#comment-9277 Jim Leff's Slog: Popular Sufism Thu, 22 Jan 2009 02:37:58 +0000 http://www.razarumi.com/?p=1252#comment-9277 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] about persecution of these poetic, tolerant Moslems by their fundamentalist co-religionists), this article, reprinted from the December 18 Economist, is quite interesting. It describes Sufism as it's [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] about persecution of these poetic, tolerant Moslems by their fundamentalist co-religionists), this article, reprinted from the December 18 Economist, is quite interesting. It describes Sufism as it’s [...]

]]> By: Jim Leff http://razarumi.com/2009/01/02/of-saints-and-sinners/#comment-9275 Jim Leff Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:01:59 +0000 http://www.razarumi.com/?p=1252#comment-9275 I read this article with disbelief. After a lifetime of enjoying sublime inspiration from classic Sufi poetry and music, it's hard for me to believe that such vulgar, materialistic (though admittedly somewhat fun-sounding) practices come under the Sufi banner. I now much better understand how the Wahabi/Taliban have managed to stigmatize such an obviously beautiful and spiritual tradition. On the other hand, I've met supposedly pious Brahmins with the most superficial view of the Vedas, remarkably un-Christian Christian fundamentalists, and devout Buddhists who wouldn't know emptiness from a hole in the ground. So the capacity to strongly identify with a tradition in utter blithe disregard to its profound basis seems universal. "Nostalgic", I sympathize with the impulse that led you to write this: ------- "While I believe Sufism in its true form is the true faith of our ancestors and allowed us to live in harmony with other creeds, some of the more ridiculous aspects of how it is practiced today need to be reformed" ------- ...but you may want to consider the inherent contradiction in seeking to reform in order to better tolerate. Nearly every brutal and intolerant reformation in world history has come from intentions as earnest and well-meaning as yours, I'm afraid. Yes, what you and I deem "real" Sufism would indeed be much, much harder for the bad guys to rail against. The decadent, ditzy activities taking place in the name of Sufism give those guys just what they need. It's heart-breaking. But reform and purification re: that decadence 1. won't work, and 2. is contrary to the spirit of Sufism. Every spiritual tradition has its ditzy, superstitious, materialistic segment. The beauty of Eastern traditions is that the latter has usually been tolerated by the more mystical/spiritual segment. To try to "scrape" these guys outside the Sufi banner in order to maintain purity is an alarmingly Wahabi impulse. We hate to see Sufis persecuted, but as Obama said yesterday, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals. I read this article with disbelief. After a lifetime of enjoying sublime inspiration from classic Sufi poetry and music, it’s hard for me to believe that such vulgar, materialistic (though admittedly somewhat fun-sounding) practices come under the Sufi banner. I now much better understand how the Wahabi/Taliban have managed to stigmatize such an obviously beautiful and spiritual tradition.

On the other hand, I’ve met supposedly pious Brahmins with the most superficial view of the Vedas, remarkably un-Christian Christian fundamentalists, and devout Buddhists who wouldn’t know emptiness from a hole in the ground. So the capacity to strongly identify with a tradition in utter blithe disregard to its profound basis seems universal.

“Nostalgic”, I sympathize with the impulse that led you to write this:
——-
“While I believe Sufism in its true form is the true faith of our ancestors and allowed us to live in harmony with other creeds, some of the more ridiculous aspects of how it is practiced today need to be reformed”
——-

…but you may want to consider the inherent contradiction in seeking to reform in order to better tolerate. Nearly every brutal and intolerant reformation in world history has come from intentions as earnest and well-meaning as yours, I’m afraid.

Yes, what you and I deem “real” Sufism would indeed be much, much harder for the bad guys to rail against. The decadent, ditzy activities taking place in the name of Sufism give those guys just what they need. It’s heart-breaking. But reform and purification re: that decadence 1. won’t work, and 2. is contrary to the spirit of Sufism.

Every spiritual tradition has its ditzy, superstitious, materialistic segment. The beauty of Eastern traditions is that the latter has usually been tolerated by the more mystical/spiritual segment. To try to “scrape” these guys outside the Sufi banner in order to maintain purity is an alarmingly Wahabi impulse. We hate to see Sufis persecuted, but as Obama said yesterday, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals.

]]> By: Usman Rafi http://razarumi.com/2009/01/02/of-saints-and-sinners/#comment-9166 Usman Rafi Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:38:27 +0000 http://www.razarumi.com/?p=1252#comment-9166 Raza, I would tend to disagree that there is a minimal interest in NWFP in Sufiism. Each year thousands of people walk barefoot from Peshawar to the urs of Bari Imam in Islamabad. I have visited at least one living saint (Pir) in Kohat, where the gentleman has a tremendous following. No doubt the Taliban influence is the greatest in these parts, but can we dismiss the whole of NWFP as one homogeneous area where Sufism isn't allowed or acceptable. Especially, when it is once again gaining root in Afghanistan. I really would like to learn more about this aspect. Can you shed light, or inform me where I can learn more about this. Raza,
I would tend to disagree that there is a minimal interest in NWFP in Sufiism. Each year thousands of people walk barefoot from Peshawar to the urs of Bari Imam in Islamabad.
I have visited at least one living saint (Pir) in Kohat, where the gentleman has a tremendous following. No doubt the Taliban influence is the greatest in these parts, but can we dismiss the whole of NWFP as one homogeneous area where Sufism isn’t allowed or acceptable. Especially, when it is once again gaining root in Afghanistan.
I really would like to learn more about this aspect. Can you shed light, or inform me where I can learn more about this.

]]> By: Usman Rafi http://razarumi.com/2009/01/02/of-saints-and-sinners/#comment-9165 Usman Rafi Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:27:30 +0000 http://www.razarumi.com/?p=1252#comment-9165 Wonderful article Raza. Full of information and well written. Wonderful article Raza. Full of information and well written.

]]> By: MysticSaint http://razarumi.com/2009/01/02/of-saints-and-sinners/#comment-9162 MysticSaint Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:10:25 +0000 http://www.razarumi.com/?p=1252#comment-9162 great article, but Raza bhai if u could break down the paragraphs with more space, it would be a better reading experience. great article, but Raza bhai if u could break down the paragraphs with more space, it would be a better reading experience.

]]> By: Vandana http://razarumi.com/2009/01/02/of-saints-and-sinners/#comment-9092 Vandana Sun, 04 Jan 2009 06:07:58 +0000 http://www.razarumi.com/?p=1252#comment-9092 Wonderful article.I recently took a longish journey from Delhi to Kashipur in Uttaranchal.On the way I came across hundreds of these road side shrines,some large but most just a grave with a green cloth covering them.When I stopped at a few and chatted to the people visiting them,I was told that people come here on specific days to ask for favors or just to pray.Interestingly Hindus far outnumber the Muslims at many of these places.A festive atmosphere surrounds the graves on these fixed days and stalls spring up selling green chadars,rose petals and incense sticks. This is the 'co existence in practice' that the growing sectarin and communal trends seek to destroy by the imposition of their uni dimensonal thought systems.I hope that never happens in South Asia. Wonderful article.I recently took a longish journey from Delhi to Kashipur in Uttaranchal.On the way I came across hundreds of these road side shrines,some large but most just a grave with a green cloth covering them.When I stopped at a few and chatted to the people visiting them,I was told that people come here on specific days to ask for favors or just to pray.Interestingly Hindus far outnumber the Muslims at many of these places.A festive atmosphere surrounds the graves on these fixed days and stalls spring up selling green chadars,rose petals and incense sticks.
This is the ‘co existence in practice’ that the growing sectarin and communal trends seek to destroy by the imposition of their uni dimensonal thought systems.I hope that never happens in South Asia.

]]> By: Nostalgic http://razarumi.com/2009/01/02/of-saints-and-sinners/#comment-9082 Nostalgic Fri, 02 Jan 2009 21:22:56 +0000 http://www.razarumi.com/?p=1252#comment-9082 Excellent article... I recall something Tariq Ali once wrote... something along the lines of how the more ridiculous acts of some self-styled practitioners of Sufism, like the de facto worship of graves/saints, the "invention" of saints, to which Salman Rashid has devoted a lot of attention lately in Daily Times, and the use of saintly ancestors to further your wordly interests, something a lot of these gaddi nasheens who are politicians have perfected, will lead to a backlash and push people into the arms of the Wahabi/Taliban nexus... while I believe Sufism in its true form is the true faith of our ancestors and allowed us to live in harmony with other creeds, some of the more ridiculous aspects of how it is practiced today need to be reformed... That said, the illiterate laborer praying to a saint for a male child is far more harmless than the educated office worker who for some twisted reason supports the Taliban... Excellent article…

I recall something Tariq Ali once wrote… something along the lines of how the more ridiculous acts of some self-styled practitioners of Sufism, like the de facto worship of graves/saints, the “invention” of saints, to which Salman Rashid has devoted a lot of attention lately in Daily Times, and the use of saintly ancestors to further your wordly interests, something a lot of these gaddi nasheens who are politicians have perfected, will lead to a backlash and push people into the arms of the Wahabi/Taliban nexus… while I believe Sufism in its true form is the true faith of our ancestors and allowed us to live in harmony with other creeds, some of the more ridiculous aspects of how it is practiced today need to be reformed…

That said, the illiterate laborer praying to a saint for a male child is far more harmless than the educated office worker who for some twisted reason supports the Taliban…

]]> By: Lahore - Pakistan - Asia - World - news http://razarumi.com/2009/01/02/of-saints-and-sinners/#comment-9079 Lahore - Pakistan - Asia - World - news Fri, 02 Jan 2009 13:03:03 +0000 http://www.razarumi.com/?p=1252#comment-9079 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] Of saints and sinners [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] Of saints and sinners [...]

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