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Kashmir,Azadi and Arundhati Roy
UPDATE from SAJA Forum, articles, news and comments here
UPDATE: Arundhati’s brutally frank piece where she asks this question:
The unimaginable sums of public money that are needed to keep the military occupation of Kashmir going is money that ought by right to be spent on schools and hospitals and food for an impoverished, malnutritioned population in India. What kind of government can possibly believe that it has the right to spend it on more weapons, more concertina wire and more prisons in Kashmir?
“India needs azadi from Kashmir as much as Kashmir needs azadi from India.”
Another UPDATE from Kashmir Affairs group on facebook - the video (not for the faint-hearted) below shows how Kashmiri ‘Islamic terrorists’ are being fought by the paramilitary forces.:
Arundhati Roy is a rare, independent voice in the mainstream shrill. Her statement on Kashmir is a unique sentiment of nailing the problem when all others are busy singing to the tunes of jingoism, communalism, terrorism and of course the Pakistani ‘hand’. This report is a little sample:
SRINAGAR: Activist and author Arundhati Roy, who was present at the massive Monday rally, said that the people of Kashmir have made themselves abundantly clear.
“And if no one is listening then it is because they don’t want to hear. Because this is a referendum. People don’t need anyone to represent them; they are representing themselves. As somebody who has followed people’s movements and who has been in rallies and at the heart or the edge of things, I don’t think you can dispute what you see here,” she told TOI .
Roy also said that “since the 1930s, there have been debates and disputes about who has the right to represent the Kashmiri people, whether it was Hari Singh or Sheikh Abdullah or someone else. And the debate continues till today whether it is the Hurriyat or some other party.”
Then she added, “But I think today the people have represented themselves.”
Roy concluded with words, “India needs azadi from Kashmir as much as Kashmir needs azadi from India.”
Tags: Arundhati Roy, Azadi, freedom, India, Kashmir, movement, pakistan
August 19th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Kashmir would have been independent had it not been for Pakistan sending in the barbaric Pashtun tribals in 1947.
Wonder why a similar rare, independent, sentiment doesn’t exist in Pakistan over Balochistan and NWFP?
August 19th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
It is relevant to suggest a reading of Vir Sanghvi’s “Counter Point” in Hindustan Times of Sunday last.
August 19th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
well, one has dare to say. actually, Indian state failed to internalize kashmir as a mainstream state and trying to occupied by army. after all, power performance is not solution.
August 20th, 2008 at 1:49 am
August 20th, 2008 at 2:02 am
as an idea it seems moral and logical to let kashmiris have their freedom, but I don’t think it is plausible given the nature of state and geo-political situation of kashmir. neither India nor Paksitan will let it happen.. If by some remote chance India decides in their favour, Pakistan will not leave them independent.. as long as it is in the realm of romanticism its alright but the plane of harsh realties shatters all its charm and bares the ugly and unjust side.
August 20th, 2008 at 8:16 am
India had 61 years of physical control of J&K. Yet it could NOT win the hearts of the Kashmiris. It divided them into Hindu Jammu - Muslim Kashmir Valley - Buddhist Laddakh. Jammu had BJP/RSS for sustenance and support. Naturally Kashmiri had to look for support.. He found it in another quarter. In Kashmir there is a 700,000 strong Indian Army presence (<1 of whom are Muslims). Over 90,000 Kashmiri Youth (Terrorists) have been killed over the past 15-20 years. There is no count of homes burnt - girls raped ? There is no count. They just disappeared.
J&K are part of Pakistan - if June 3, 1947 Plan is taken as a Basis. Gandhiji accepted Partition of India [ fulfilling the dream of Lal-Bal-Pal and Savarkar since 1915/1920] preferring it over Cabinet Mission Plan 1946.
J&K is a part of Pakistan as per June 3, 1947 Plan. Sardar Patel was absolutely right., when he said that J&K (Hindu Ruler / 90% Muslim Population) should go to Pakistan. However, Hyderabad Deccan (Muslim Ruler / 80% Population Hindu) MUST be part of Indian Dominion. That made SENSE. Sardar Patel was practical and pragmatic.
Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru… to do justice to his memory needed a laboratory - a region - to project the workability of secularism. He needed an intellectual handle on the RSS. Nehru realised the danger RSS posed both to Hinduism and to India in the long term. Nehru and Sarojini Naidu were the finest Hindus [if you look from a long-term perspective]. Congress was an umbrella organisation - Madan Mohan Malaviya, Head of the Hindu Maha Sabha was also the President of the Congress !. These sign-boards were blurred. Nehru did what he did BUT unfortunately, India had 60 years of physical control - what stopped it from developing J&K . What stopped it from creating an atmosphere where J&K citizens should have preferred Delhi to Lahore., and Mumbai to Karachi. Why is this dis-connect ? 60 years is a long period in time. India could have done something concrete. Instead, there were only gimmicks and superficial gestures (Wearing an orange saree in Jammu and speaking in RSS language… wearing a green saree in Kashmir and reciting verses in Urdu… that was Mrs. Indira Gandhi). This superficiality, white lies, rigged elections (literal dis-empowerment), corruption, unemployment + on top of this presence of a huge army with no respect for human rights alienated the Kashmiris. India missed the opportunity. Phsyical control of the land .. yes… but hearts and minds.. no. India could not conquer the hearts and minds.
RSS partitioned India in 1947 - it wants to partition J&K again. Hindu Jammu (read : expel Muslims from Jammu);, Muslim Kashmir (Jagmohan of RSS lifted Pundits from the valley when he was Governor); and Buddhist Laddakh. They are at it again.
India is a huge country - Arundhati is saying the plain truth. India must do what it must with good intent. Intention is everything. If it plays games - people understand ! Every Shalinyas - every rath yatra - every Babri Masjid - every Mumbai 1992 - every Gujarat 2002 - weakens India’s case in Kashmir. There should be communal harmony in India. You cant have Gujarat 2002 in “Secular India”., and also lay your clain to Communal Kashmir !
All communal parties must be banned in India. 100 people must be in jail for 100 crores to sleep peacefully. By nature, Indians (Hindu and Muslims) are peaceful - but hate-merchants like Togadia, Modi, Ashok Singhal indulge in hate-speech inciting young hindus (both in.. and out of uniform… i.e.) to rape, kill, burn, steal muslim property with impunity [Police tumhare Saath Hai ! They are literally inciting young Hindus to break LAW !]. When this mindset gains strength in India Kashmir inches AWAY from India. The congress is known to push things in the carpet. BJP will try to make political capital out of this - creating further hatred and polarising society. BJP relies on its “HATE-BANK” that guarantees it 100 seats in the Lok Sabha. So riots are necessary to consolidate this “Hate Bank”.
Social harmony is more vital than 10% Growth. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh should understand that… but since he is not a politician.. he is happy with figures.. pie-charts.. bar-charts.. and so on. The tsunami of civil war will wash away all the gains made. It is time to preserve India. Let sanity prevail., otherwise all the good work done over the 60 years would be undone !
Reduce the figures of the Indian army - if some have to be kept at the borders - let them be - but they should not kill citizens of their own country. How can you imagine an Indian soldier killing a kashmiri ? It means either the soldier and the kashmiri are NOT one … or.. the fact that the army is an occupying army.
It cant be both. That situation must change on the ground. Indian Government can still correct the course. Development must be the “Mantra”. Develop J&K - it has huge potential. Let the Hindu of Jammu - the muslim of Kashmir - and the Buddhist of Ladakh… grow economically. Provide them good security. When they are enriched - india is enriched too.
J&K is a part of India. Prove it in deed. Since RSS has monopoly on “nationalism”… RSS volunteers can be considered to be posted on the borders.. to guard Bharat Mata. But they must not be allowed to rape / kill / burn their Muslim brothers/sisters in Kashmir.
August 21st, 2008 at 8:35 am
Forget about kashmir for a while… and see the bigger picture..
Its basically a problem of religious nature… and i don’t want to speak anymore than why muslims all over the world … so intolerent to other religions.. its a fact … they have broken budhists statues and killed millions of people in “holy wars”.. the semitic religions are the root of all religious disharmony… and you can argue another 5000 years about this fact…. a muslim will never understand and will never totally accept and give respect to others religion and so they are basically terrorists…. yes .. all the kids know the king is naked… but not the ” muslims” nor the “intellectuals “..who are worse than sentimetalists and poets …
August 21st, 2008 at 9:22 am
Zen
At first I wanted to delete your comment but then I thought that let this be a sample of pure hate speech against Muslims. You are obviously not aware of history especially that of religions. Your rant is purely driven by anti-Muslim mindset that sees all evil in Muslims.
I would not even bother to respond to your ignorance..
August 21st, 2008 at 9:34 am
I think that the only practicable solution that can bring relatively permanent and long-lasting peace to the sub-continent, at least on account of the Kashmir issue, is to declare the Line of Control (LoC) as the international border.
I believe politicians in India as well as Pakistan are acutely aware of this, but are scared of the virtual ‘political suicide’ that this could entail for them, on account of the rhetoric that they have built up on the subject.
August 21st, 2008 at 8:58 pm
“I believe politicians in India as well as Pakistan are acutely aware of this, but are scared of the virtual ‘political suicide’ that this could entail for them, on account of the rhetoric that they have built up on the subject”
Truly said Sidhusaaheb! May reason and peace prevail in Kashmir!
August 22nd, 2008 at 1:29 am
A few hard core seculars are advocating that Kashmir should be allowed to secede. They try to couch it in various forms, but all boil down to :RELIGION.
Permit it and be ready to face similar demands. All christians in NE and Goa will demand such rights. Muslims in pockets where they are strong will demand it, Kerala being a ripe candidate. Tamils may not be far behind.
Arundhati Roy and her co-horts will have no problem if India is balkanised.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:07 am
I here by SENTENCE Arundhati Roy to Death.
We the Webizens of India Citizens of India who have access to the Web hereby Sentence Arundhati Roy to death for sedition against the
Indian constitution.
This sentence should be carried out in 30 days.
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:37 am
I think Ms. Arundhati Roy is dead on. If 700,000 Indian troops cannot keep peace in Kashmir, the problem is with the rest of the Indians and not the Kashmiris.
The hatred against Muslims expressed by some on this blog is unbelievable. May God have mercy on you and show you the love of other human beings regardless of their caste, color, gender and religion.
I say let’s free Kashmir from Indian occupation.
August 22nd, 2008 at 7:41 am
Arundhati is befooling herself if she thinks that so called azadi is the solution. It is basically religious intolerance that Kasmiri Muslims have already exhibited by flushing non Muslims out of Kashmir and all the pseudosecularists need to understand that this process will continue as for a muslim it is his duty to either CONVERT, OR CHASE AWAY and if this does no work then KILL to install ISLAM. So this problem needs to be nipped in bud.
August 22nd, 2008 at 12:56 pm
This is regarding the Intolerance in Gujarat and Babri Masjid. Personally I don’t believe in god. 80% Indians are Hindus and Muslims accounts for 15% just imagine the reverse if 80% Muslim. By these 61 years every one must have converted forcefully to Muslim. People like me who doe not believe in god would not be left alive. But in India I am free to say I that god do not exist but if we live in a country with 80% Muslim population I am dead.
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:55 pm
If you are a Kashmiri Pandit who had to leave his homeland because of the Islamic terrorists why woud you not dislike Islam? Please tell me in what Islamic country religious minorities have rights? Why do 150 million muslims in India not move to their beloved Pakistan or Bangladesh? Or to their great Arab brother states who treat Pakistanis and Bangladeshi and other poorer Muslims with soooooo much respect that they are not even counted as people there? Hello, if Muslims do not like INdia and start to cause trouble they are free to leave. As simple as that. Just as if someone does not like it in the U.S. A. they are free to leave.
If you look at the history of Kashmir–the very name and history suggests HIndu and Buddhist civilization. The Pandits refused to convert to a Bedouin Arab religion for centuries and endured in their homeland. Muslims are there because of forced conversions and because people had to pay higher taxes for being non muslims. Once the Arab states run out of oil and smart people discover alternative sources of energy, they will revert to their camel riding days and Arab support for failed terrorist states like Pakistan will stop and all this nonsense created by Muslims will stop cause they will have no money to cause mischief around the world.
The Kashmiri Muslims have some balls—living off the dole of the Indian government and killing Hindus and making the state 100 percent muslim. Time Indian must take a firm stand and sent all traitors packing to Pakistan or Saudi or Bangladesh. The problem stated with Gandhi and Nehru who did not realize that when Muslims are in the minority they want fair treatment but when they are in the majority they want Sahriah law. Sardar Patel would have sent them all to Pakistan and the problem would be over. Now look what has happened because Gandhi and Nehru wanted to show the world how humane India is by letting Muslims stay. How did Russia deal with the Georgian situation. India needs to learn a lesson and Hindus must wake up and send all terrorists packing to Pakistan where they belong.
I dare you to delete my post because you know I am speaking the truth.
Is there one Muslim country that has democracy or the freedom of expression?
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Muslims are very disingenuous when they accuse other of hating them. It is they who hate all other religions to the core.
They lie and hate simultaneously. No wonder nobody likes them in this world which they are hell bent on destroying.
If Muslims in Kashmir do not want to live in India let them go to Pakistan.
Arundhati Roy is just being used by Pakistanis because of her anti-India stance.
August 22nd, 2008 at 10:22 pm
The real reason behind the war is that Kashmir has the headwaters of all major rivers flowing into the subcontinent and is therefore prime real estate. Everything else is hogwash. Religion is just a cover. Pakistan is the last country in the world that should talk of religious tolerance, secularism, human rights etc when it cannot even sustain a semblance of democracy. Indias democracy has its issues but at least its a democracy. Pakistan is a failed society. If they control the headwaters in Kashmir they control their own destiny. Otherwise “big brother” does and thats the real issue. Wake up and get real !!!
August 23rd, 2008 at 4:09 am
Gosh, there’s a lot of hatred on this blog!
I think some of the people here-despite their fanaticism-make some valid points: there is a growing trend of intolerance and a lot of muslim countries have a very poor record when it comes to the rights of minorities. That cannot be denied.
But what strikes me as quite odd is: 1. that Raza’s blog-and the Islamic tradition that he alludes to in his writings- is the precise oppositie of that intolerance, and so people who talk about “islam” as a monolithic, ahistoric entity haven’t been reading this blog for very long ! and
2) The hatred that people have expressed here is really a defence mechanism:the inability to transcend a petty sort of nationalism (”sickness and unreason ” I think Nietzsche called it).
Instead of facing up to the crimes that the Indian state has committed one decides to take the easy way out and rant (this is NOT to ignore the crimes by terrorists in Kashmir or the terrible explsion of Hindu Kashmiris). But to ignore the deaths of so many people and reduce this to a matter of ‘religion’ or politics is really shoddy thinking. As walt whitman would say: we need to see other people as human beings, not as dots and dreams.
Oh God, I hope we get independence from both sets of fanatics.
August 24th, 2008 at 3:02 am
First of all, the Indian army kills Muslims because they engage in terrorist activities. Not even the army could protect the Pandits–who have a long history of non violence. The entire Muslim valley rose against the Pandits, the State lost control–this is why they left.
Can you name non-Mulisms who enjoy living in a Muslim country?
Even my Iranian friends say that it is very intolerant religion, imported from barbaric bedouins–they even say that it has destroyed Persian culture. Educated Iranians say it is their religion because they were forced to convert by the sword–but they dislike everything Arab still. Nice thing about Iranians is that you can say the worst things about Islam and they will agree!!!
In Kashmir, most Muslims are either low caste people who converted to Islam, or people who converted because they had to pay very high taxes , or they were poor and had to convert for material reasons to be able to work in a Muslim dominated court, or the descendants to those who came in to spread Islam in the valley.
Originally Kashmir, the cradle of HIndu civilization and Mahayana Buddhism, let the Muslims come in as they were tolerant. However, as the Muslims grew more powerful with a Islamic court in Delhi they started to force their religion on others. Why should HIndus and Buddhists convert to a religion founded by a Bedoiun prophet who came from the desert of Arabia where they were so barbaric that they had to fight over water? The Turkish barbaric hordes who attacked India and brought in the religion to India. They had always dreamed of spreading Islam to a beautiful place like Kashmir. Of course it is the opposite of the kind of place that Islam was founded and I guess they got what they wanted because without any Hindus left look at what it has now become! I hear that it is really dirty and unrecognizable now. Before it was progressive because it was multi cultural. Now it is 100 percent Muslim. And the population is getting more radicalized and fanatic. Soon they will probably have their dream of Sharian law since they have cleansed it of all other ethnic groups, people who have been living there long before there was a religion called Islam in existence.
Kashmir–the very name is Hindu. Muslims have no association with it other than that they forced many people to convert and made the area majority Muslim. Kashmir is the Jerusalem for Hindus and also very holy for Buddhists. Only out of such a sublime environment did great religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism grow. Hindus should be willing to fight and die for the cradle of their civilization and should send all Muslim terrorists to Pakistan, Saudi and Bangladesh. Enough of appeasing Muslims. If Muslims in Kashmir Valley do not respect others than it is time perhaps for a last war with Pakistan over Kashmir. Pakistan should stop interference in Kashmir or it should be willing to accept 150 million Muslims, because India has no need for traitors who advocate Pakistani currency in Kashmir and cannot get along with the Hindus. If Pakistan gets Kashmir, then it should be prepared for an influx of 150 more Muslim brothers. Because there comes a time when people have had enough of this!!
Look at Azad Kashmir, how backward and illiterate the people are there without the subsidies that Kashmiris on the India side enjoy.
If Muslims do not like it in India, get out, go to Pakistan!
What happened to Kashmir when Islam became dominant? The same thing what happened to countries like Iran–it went into a decline. There was no longer any or literature of philosophy. Just carpets and shawls and some gardens for the Mogul court to enjoy. One just has to read history to see this. Now look at it–100 percent Muslims and how progressive it has become.
August 24th, 2008 at 3:18 am
The solution is to push out all those who do not wish to live in India to Pakistan or Bangladesh. It might be even good riddance. Less illiterate people to uplift.
August 24th, 2008 at 11:36 am
Kali : Typically Savarkarian (Bal-Lal-Pal) mindset. They wanted partition as early as 1915 to 1920. United India meant “sharing real power” (sharing the spoils)., which they wanted to avoid at any cost.
Thats why, Gandhi ji preferred partition over Cabinet Mission Plan…(”This is worst than Pakistan !”)
Jinnah’s own proposal to the Cabinet Mission on May 12, 1946 envisaged : not partition, but a confederation based on 3 groups. The bargainer would have conceded Federation in a settlement. The Congress wrecked the Mission’s Plan by dishonest prevarication.
There was a trap laid - and pressure applied (unleashing riots, i.e.). The strategy was to push so much… and to the wall… that ultimately the Indian Muslims ask for “separation”. They succeeded. Sanity was thrown to the winds. RSS knew what it was doing - and succeeded. But India’s growth potential was stunted thereby… they did not care for it. It was a price … to get rid of a necessary “evil”… so that they could build a society according to their own genius (as we see the flowering of that dream in Gujarat after 60 years !). Only Maulana Azad resisted it.. but they walked over him. Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan & Dr. Khan Sahib were quickly abandoned. Lifetime of work utterly dis-regarded when push came to shove. The British enjoyed it all. The British Parliament disposed off, the India Independence Bill in exactly 15 minutes !
August 24th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
I am a friend of Raza (in the literal sense) and an admirer of Ms. Roy the Kashmiris and all freedom loving people - whose courage defies all repression. I was fortunate to hear this frail, petite woman when she came to Pakistan, the heroine of Narbada’s people power. She reminds me of Abdul Qayyum Nashad’s verse
talk hai kita sukh say jeena, pooch na yeh fankaron say
hum sub loha kaat rahay hain, kaghaz ki talwaron say
Ask not the people of art and letters, how bitter life is
We all are attempting to cut iron with swords of paper
This is not the first time that people’s power is speaking - nor will it be the last. In my own country it was people’s power that pushed out a despot who had convinced himself that he was an “elected leader” [Before you make a fool of others you must make a fool of yourself]. I recall Mahatir Muhammad’s last words before he resigned as PM of Malaysia after 19 years in office: “I want to leave before someone kicks my butt”.
But few realize this fundamental truth: the Frensh left Algeria after killing a million Algerians (and then apologizing to them and setting aside a national day of remembrance); they returned to Vietnam and were thrown out by the Will of the people who then wnet under the yoke of the most powerful nation in the world; Israel has not conquered the Palestinians after 41 years (or perhaps 60); the Russians have only subdued some of the 12 odd nations born out of the demise of their union.
Power makes a fool of us - unless we continuously remind ourselves that pharoahs, ceasars, emperors were also rubbed into the dust that will overtake all of us.
The point is not whether Pakistan is a good role model or whether Muslims being so evil should be decimated from India (for good riddance) - if not the whole world (for a new Final Solution), the point is simply that Ms. Roy said that to her it appeared the Indian state had failed to integrate these people in 60 years.
There have been many vitriolic comments on this blog. I only wish to present these people with examples of forgiveness and reconcilliation. Let us remind ourselves that we live only once. and that we should not make life miserable for ourselves or for others. Remember the golden rule: do unto others as you wish to be done unto yourself. Just because the Indians - mostly Hindus suffered for many hundred years at the hands of Muslims should not be a reasons to pour misery on the Kashmiris. Let us be fair and remember that partition took place on the basis of majority rule: The Muslim rulers of Junagadh and Hyderabad opted out of the Indian union were were military forced into its fold on acocunt of Hindu majorities yet the same principle was not applied to Kashmir…its a long story but let fairness prevail…
Dil saaf ho kis tarah ke insaaf nahi hai
insaaf ho kid tarah ke did saaf nahi hai
August 24th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
The more I think of it, perhaps it was really good that India was partitioned. Otherwise the Muslim population would be huge there. And one just has to look at Kashmir and Pakistan to realize that when they become the majority they want Sahriah law and treat religious minorities really badly. At least with partition, people who do not contribute to civilization went to Pakistan and Bangladesh. Now India has to deal with a large Muslim population which can turn radical–they are still allowed four wives and hence the crazy population growth. You look at Pakistan and Bangladesh and realize what happens when Muslims obtain arms and form a nation. Look everywhere at Muslim nations. Can you point to one that is progressive and contributes to civilization? Even Turkey is having problems with radical elements. I sincerely believe that Islam is the biggest threat to civilization everywhere globally–my Muslim friends such as Iranians who know their history and have not forgotten their true Persian roots always agree on this–so that proves a great deal. In India perhaps the lower castes were discriminated against and now they are being uplifted–but the Muslim populaion? I doubt they will ever enter into the mainstream.
So when you consider that there are a lot less Muslims to cause trouble in India, you realize that partition was a good thing.
One thing India should do–remove all radical Muslims to Pakistan and Bangladesh and build something like a Berlin Wall so that they may never enter India and cause trouble.
August 24th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
By the Muslims logic, all Muslims in India should go to Pakistan or Bangladesh. Why do they stay there? Because they know that they enjoy rights and are better off economically. But to stay in a country and be ungrateful and start fomenting trouble means that they must not stay there but go to Pakistan or Bangladesh. If Kashmir goes to Pakistan then Pakistan must be prepared to accept an exodus of 150+ muslims. Then we will see what kind of nation it will become.
The partition was a great thing–but it did not benefit India because they did not do a clean partion and Indian still has a great population of Muslims.
I just thank god that my ancestors fought and as a result I do not have to wear a burka nor follow the religion of Arabs but that of our ancestors—
August 24th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Kali
You are abusing free expression - your views border on fascism - plain and simple. Not only that you are ignorant of history but you are a racist and a bigot.
I suggest that you spend your time and energy in working for RSS rather than ranting here. If you are an NRI then just put in money in Hindutva fascist brigades as your views are perfectly aligned to their extremism.
You must be joking that Indian Muslims are doing well- or you are plain ignorant. 68 percent of OBCs are Muslims and a majority lives below the poverty line.
Have you heard of the Sachar Committee report - i bet you haven’t. It might be better if you were to check on your facts and then spit venom..
August 24th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Arundhati’s book is very medoocre. It is well written but is just a book for entertainment just as hundreds of bestseller are written for entertainment–in no way is it good literature. People say she obtained the award because there was nothing better written that year–just shows how culture in general is deteriorating–when it comes to literature.
August 24th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Is it the HIndus’ fault that they go to Mardassas and do not educate themselves? Or that they have four wives and ten children that they cannot afford? Hello? I knew this girl from Karachi attending an American Universitiy. She was from a Middle class family in Pakistan. She said that her village stopped talking to her parents because they had sent her to the U.S.A. Perhaps it is your culture that holds people down.
RSS? I have no connection to RSS. I just have read and understand my history unlike most Indians who have no sense of history, because if they did they would not be repeating it like right now? Why am I against the OBC? They are getting affirmative action seats–it it not their fault but that of the government that tries affirmative action instead of free quality universal education as a solution. As for Kashmiri Muslims, I know they have no gratitude. The Pandits were most teachers and non-violent and educated them, as most Muslims were illiterate. Look at the result. I call living off billions of dollars of Indian government money and causing terrorism ingratitude. The Hindus and Muslims were living peacefully in the valley until Benazir started using American money intended to Afghanistan to fight Russians that had to go through Pakistan to support insurgents in Kashmir. This is how trouble started there. So please do not call me a bigot–the valley was multi-cultural and people were living in harmony before 89 although there was systematic discrimination of the Pandits by the Muslims. Well you own people gave Benazir her just reward because violence begets violence. If your people want to attend Madrassas instead of getting a real education–do not blame Hindus. The Indian government spends about 10481 in an individual in Kashmir and 941 per individual in Bihar in terms of human development. What is the result. Throwing money down the tubes.
Do not call me a bigot. Lets us not go into personal insults. Just give me good arguments to consider your claims.
Muslims in Kashmir ask for Pandits to come back. Even Middle class muslims have left the valley. Now it is full of Muslims from the rural areas who are radicalized and do not have much education.
Why call me a bigot? I have a lot of Muslim friends–Iranian, Afghan and others. But they agree with me on my views on Islam.
One does not choose one’s religion. Perhaps instead of complaining all the time, Muslims should try to uplift themselves and also read a bit of history about their religion–they should educate themselves and contribute to civilization–only then will people start to respect them.
August 24th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
As far as I am concerned, the Hindu and Buddhist roots of Kashmir valley will never be able to be erased, even if the Muslims in the valley try to erase it just as they try elsewhere like in Iran to erase the pre-Islamic glory of a region. Look at Pandits. When they were kicked out og their ancestral lands by terrorists, no one helped them. Many who grew up in camps are now doctors and engineers. They have helped themselves by educating themselves and many were able to escape the camps and be successful. So why cannot Muslims help themselves and stop complaining?
August 24th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
check out the article to know what kashmir youths had to say about the whole azadi issue. It is just few thousands of anti-indians who are making things worse for the state. They should be hanged immediately.
August 24th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7471050.stm
August 24th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Hey Gori nice article–esp from the BBC which even the British accuse of being too liberal. Looks like their Sheykh does not like to seem them educated and would like to see them locked up in mideveal Madarssas. Kashmiri Muslims were much different and generally not as radical as those in Pakistan–the radicalization started with the insurgency. Hopefully they will return to their former nature for that is the only hope left for them if they are not to self-destruct like their muslim brothers in Pakisan.
August 24th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
I just love how others are able to post but each of my comments awaits moderation? What have I said that is not the truth?
August 24th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
And to end your blog which you say is not for the faint hearted how about a little dose of Kashmiri Pandits story who no longer have a home in their ancestral lands? I just dare you to delete it. I watched your video so you would watch this. If you want to show that Muslims allow for fair debate than you will not delete this. Shows Benazir inciting people.
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=eCRFWStxV_4
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=u2vsztUdkpU&feature=related
August 24th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
What about Kashmiri Pandits who are associated with the saffron valley since last 10,000 years————– with its history, culture, tradition, customs, society, etc.
August 25th, 2008 at 7:07 am
Kali : Your writing (true to your name) symbolises hatred and violence. The way a person argues his case displays his/her upbringing. Your case is pathetic bordering on frustrated rant. It is an old RSS tactic. Shout loud/repeatedly to overpower truth. RSS has damaged the psyche of the Indian people - selling hatred since 1926.
This highlights the levels of hatred that have permeated Indian society. Indian Army & CRPF show their machismo (manliness) only before Kashmiri crowds. That is because there is NO connection whatsoever.
Why dont they use rubber bullets. People are revolting now. This is “people’s power”. This is “referendum”.
Holding Kashmir as “hostage” - a price - to allow 15 crore scattered Indian Muslims to breathe is the final argument. After this, there is nothing to blackmail ! Kashmiris are so alienated from India now (thanks to its wonderful record on human rights); they really dont care.
Kill 15 crore Indian Muslims. A man-made disaster, i.e. This is due to lack of leadership. Vajpayee said that he would solve J&K problem - that would be his legacy - but he back-tracked. Instead, Gujarat 2002 became his legacy. “Aag pehle kis ne lagaayi”.. he said in Goa.
Godhra mein.. Pehli Aag.. RSS ne lagaayi thee.. Throw beef in a temple… garland Gandhi’s statue with beef… and start slaughtering Muslims (The Old RSS tactic). Guru Golwalkar was caught with bombs and ammunition in Meerut (1950s). GB Pant, then CM of UP, allowed Golwalkar to escape. RSS is a criminal mafia - and a gang ! As simple as that.
Hate is a Billion Dollar business. 70% of the US Economy depends on war business.
India has problems with all its neighbours ! The moment is crucial and historic for India. It can be a major power (IF it shows a tolerant world-view - sharing spoils of state with all its people. Today 3% of the pop is holding 85% top jobs. How do you explain that).
Gujarat is a Hindu majority state. All its top officials are Hindu. In the similar vein, J&K is a muslim-majority state., but all top jobs are held by HIndus. How do you explain THAT ?
If India opts for RSS world-view (we hold Kashmir hostage as a price to allow 15 crore indian muslims to remain inside india), the threshold has now been crossed. Kashmiris really dont care. RSS can start its ethnic cleansing. Of course this would invite its own responses (following Newton’s Law). “Aag pehle kis ne lagaayi” … and the game starts.
Godhra mein aag RSS ne lagaayi. 50 innocent hindus were killed. Later RSS slaughtered 5000 Muslims. Polarisation was complete., and that lead to electoral victory ! Bingo !!
Kashmir is not India. From the viewpoint of race., language, culture, food-habits, dress, even VOICE. The moment you step on its soil, you can feel.. this is NOT India. It is something different. Indian army knows that it is an occupying army !
India cant have Mumbai 1992/Godhra 2002 and Kashmir. It must decide. If it wants Godhra 2002, Kashmir slips. If it wants to keep Kashmir within the Union, it must ensure that Godhra 2002 is not repeated…. but who can guarantee… RSS has permeated the Army / Police / Politics / Judiciary / Journalists / Doctors / and what not. Infact RSS has permeated the Indian Psyche.
Savarkar is now the Father of the Indian Nation replacing Gandhi. The masks have fallen !
RSS is driving recklessly, and it will not rest until it turns India into Afghanistan. If Muslims could not live peacefully in Pakistan, how can all Hindus live “happily ever after” once Indian Muslims are exterminated ! Indian Muslims are holding India together.. playing the role of a punching bag. Look at what is happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Same will happen in Hindu India. Hindu Taliban will cause untold suffering. That seems to be its destiny… cuz sanity is becoming weak by the day in India.
J&K citizens have “Asmita” too (including the Kashmiri Pundits - who were lifted by RSS/Jagmohan as a pre-emptive / precautionary measure). J&K citizens (including the Muslims of Jammu) are entitled to “Asmita” too.. along with Kashmiri pundits.
J&K joined India under special circumstances (infact no one has seen the Instrument of Accession.. some say.. it doesnt exist !). India must try to win the hearts and minds of J&K. It doesnt require military measures. They require love.. tolerance.. investment.. and development.
If J&K is “part of India”, then why is India not developing J&K. It has a 700,000 military presence ! This is a moment and a challenge. Both for India and the Kashmiris. If the discourse is conducted in a RSS-style.. it would suck the whole of S.E. Asia and push it into war.. tears.. and total destruction. Hatred would suck SE Asia like a vaccum cleaner. India is underplaying the role of RSS. In Theocratic Pakistan, Communal elements never won an election (<5% of the votes). In Secular India, BJP came to power in the centre for 6 years.. and presently rules in 6 major provinces/states. India must control / rein in / ban RSS. It has to choose between RSS and development. It cant have both. Masks dont hold in 2008. People cant be fooled. This is not 1947.
August 25th, 2008 at 8:38 am
August 25th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Well i have gone through the comments above and its ridiculous that people who don’t belong to the problem are giving suggestions to solve it…..
I am a Kashmiri Muslim and i only i am the sufferer….
First let me clear the concept of Islam that people have about it out of their ignorance. Islam means peace. The reasons that people are against Islam is due to the propaganda of the western media. If you know even the 9/11 is yet to be proved that it was done by Muslims, and their are evidences that it was even manipulated. USA is just paving the ways to attack Muslim nations, firstly it was Afghanistan, then Iraq and now they have an eye on Iran. It is a well know fact that even criticizing Islam every now and then, it is still the fastest growing religion. Now you tell me how many people were killed in 9-11, even if for the sake of argument that was done by Muslims? Is that count more than the innocent people that have been killed by USA in Afghanistan and Iraq.
You people are taking about the harsh and barbaric laws that Islam is following. I just wanna tell you that in the most liberal state USA is in the top of the list among rape incidents, robberies, etc. What do you mean Liberalism? Does it mean that we can have more pre-marriage babies than post-marriage ones? Does it mean that women should dress almost naked so that they can show their beauty? Does it mean that the divorce rate should exceed the marriage rate? Does it mean that we can have lesbian and gay marriages? Is this is what you call liberality then i would wish to remain slave for my whole life.
I have nothing to do with Pakistan or India, nor we are fighting a religious war. We Kashmirs believe that we were an independent state and should be what we were. Had Pakistan been our concern, we would have never ought help from India. It is the double standard that India has been playing ever since it has occupied the land illegally, they promised us that we should decide our fate through plebiscite which is yet to be fulfilled. We also don’t speak only about that part which is under India, but also Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Kashmir that was on 14th August 1947.
Regarding Kashmiri Pandits, they were our brothers and will remain our brothers. They were also victims of hypocrisy by the government of India. It was a ploy used by then governor of State Jagmohan, to separate Hindus from Muslims, so that he can kill Kashmir Muslims at will. We tried our best that Pandits should remain there and are still inviting them to come back.
For God’s sake don’t make it a religious issue, it is a regional dispute even accepted by UNO. Had we been against religion, we could have stopped Amarnath Yatra when the movement was on peak in early 90’s. Instead we Muslims take care of it, since it commensurate way back in 19th century. We just want justice and that can be done by making the people of J&K to decide their fate themselves and not by India or Pakistan.
August 25th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
And finally, all I can say is that is Muslims are so unhappy in India, why do they not leave to greener pastures in Pakistan or Bangladesh? Were these countries not created for Muslims because they were unhappy living in India? If they do not like it in India, they are free to leave–they stayed becasue of their own accord. They should uplift and educate themselves, not destroy civilization. Just quit whining and complaining and get yourselves an education through hard work and quit whining on the internet about how India holds you down. Do not blame others for your own ineptitude. I have already wasted precious time on this silly blog. Goodbye.
August 25th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
August 26th, 2008 at 6:22 am
Kali : You are not the Passport / Conduct Certificate Issuing Authority ! Who are you to suggest this or that ? Bring 80 together and exterminate the 20… Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. We have seen a plague in Gujarat.. followed by a terrible earth-quake during Moditva. Gujarat is the laboratory of Hindutva (hatred and mob violence) today. Initially it would provide some joy of sadism among gujaratis… and then the intellectual implosion and frustration would start.
All individuals are born Muslim… cuz Islam is the natural religion of man. Adam was a Muslim. After age 18, every individual must examine his life and try to find answers to some basic questions (instead of being tutored by Bal Thackerey / Modi / RSS / Advani).
Idol worship creates duality and delusion. As regards the argument that we use the “idol” to focus, read what Ramakrishna Paramahansa (the KALI Bhakt of Belur) has to say.
The whole of creation is Muslim. Individuals.. trees.. plants.. leaves.. rivers.. mountains.. air.. Even if Modi/RSS eliminate Indian Muslims, every single leaf on every single tree in India is Muslim. They will have to burn the whole of India from earth to sky to destroy Islam (scorch earth policy - thats what RSS [in military fatigue] is doing in J&K]. I hate the word conversion. It is reverting… back to the original religion.
Muslims have flaws… Do not judge Islam at the bar of muslim behavior… Islam is as much yours as any muslim’s. It is a guideline for the whole of humanity. Read.. halt.. ponder.. think.. reflect.. and you will find your own lights. Let your heart be your guide.
This is not a critique.. but honestly, Hinduism and Humanism are incompatible. If Humanism is injected into Hinduism., it would be great… and that must be encouraged [Tagore / Raja Ram Mohan Roy / Eashwarchand Vidyasagar tried it... ] . Manu-vaad that separates individuals - preaches hatred and segregation - encourages negativity - honestly as a philosophy has no future in 2008. In the short-term, like Nazism… it may “rock”… but then the bubble would burst. It would dilute in 2 generations.
You cannot build a civilisation on hatred for the “other”. 80% of Indian Muslims are those., whose fore-fathers converted to Islam voluntarily… escaping the sick and perverted discrimination of the Hindu caste system. Yes… but then nothing is permanent. Change is the law of nature. Now the progency of those converts (from Hinduism to Islam)., are willing to die… but not leave Islam. Their fore-fathers converted at the point of the sword., says RSS… That is bull-shit. Hate cannot sustain itself so long. Now their progency.. iw willing to die… be burnt alive… than leave Islam. Why are muslims suffering so much… these are matters of the heart.
Hatred will destroy you… in the end. Discover the power of love. It is a more benign and powerful force.
August 26th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Hey what kind of moderation is this? You Muslim buddies’ comments however irrational all appear here but you need to moderate mine for speaking the truth? MWAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
August 26th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Here is one for Dagstir by Arun Shourie for he just seems to love Hindutva;-)
SPECIAL TO THE EXPRESS
Hindutva and radical Islam: Where the twain do meet
Arun Shourie
Posted online: Friday, December 28, 2007 at 0000 hrs Print Email
Every set of scriptures has in it enough to justify extreme, even violent reaction. The tectonic shift in the Hindu mind, that has been going on for 200 years, is being underestimated
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Your Hindutva is no different from Islamic fundamentalism’ — a fashionable statement these days, one that immediately establishes the person’s secular credentials. It is, of course, false, as we shall see in a moment. But there is a grain of potential truth in it — something that does not put Hinduism at par with Islam, but one that should, instead, serve as a warning to all who keep pushing Hindus around. That grain is the fact that every tradition has in it, every set of scriptures has in it enough to justify extreme, even violent reaction. From the very same Gita from which Gandhiji derived non-violence and satyagraha, Lokmanya Tilak constructed the case for ferocious response, not excluding violence. From the very same Gita from which Gandhiji derived his ‘true law’, shatham pratyapi satyam, ‘Truth even to the wicked’, the Lokmanya derived his famous maxim, shatham prati shaathyam, ‘Wickedness to the wicked.’
In the great work, Gita Rahasya, that he wrote in the Mandalay prison, the Lokmanya invokes Sri Samartha, ‘Meet boldness with boldness; impertinence by impertinence must be met; villainy by villainy must be met.’ Large-heartedness towards those who are grasping? Forgiveness towards those who are cruel? ‘Even Prahlada, that highest of devotees of the Blessed Lord,’ the Lokmanya recalls, has said, ‘Therefore, my friend, wise men have everywhere mentioned exceptions to the principle of forgiveness.’ True, the ordinary rule is that one must not cause harm to others by doing such actions as, if done to oneself, would be harmful. But, the Mahabharata, Tilak says, ‘has made it clear that this rule should not be followed in a society, where there do not exist persons who follow the other religious principle, namely, others should not cause harm to us, which is the corollary from this first principle.’ The counsel of ‘equability’ of the Gita, he says, is bound up with two individuals; that is, it implies reciprocity. ‘Therefore, just as the principle of non-violence is not violated by killing an evil-doer, so also the principle of self-identification [of seeing the same, Eternal Self in all] or of non-enmity, which is observed by saints, is in no way affected by giving condign punishment to evil-doers.’ Does the Supreme Being not Himself declare that He takes incarnations from time to time to protect dharma and destroy evil-doers? Indeed, the one who hesitates to take the retaliatory action that is necessary assists the evil to do their work. ‘And the summary of the entire teaching of the Gita is that: even the most horrible warfare which may be carried on in these circumstances, with an equable frame of mind, is righteous and meritorious.’
Tilak invokes the advice of Bhisma, and then of Yudhisthira, ‘Religion and morality consist in behaving towards others in the same way as they behave towards us; one must behave deceitfully towards deceitful persons, and in a saintly way towards saintly persons.’ Of course, act in a saintly way in the first instance, the Lokmanya counsels. Try to dissuade the evil-doer through persuasion. ‘But if the evilness of the evil-doers is not circumvented by such saintly actions, or, if the counsel of peacefulness and propriety is not acceptable to such evil-doers, then according to the principle kantakenaiva kantakam (that is, “take out a thorn by a thorn”), it becomes necessary to take out by a needle, that is by an iron thorn, if not by an ordinary thorn, that thorn which will not come out with poultices, because under any circumstances, punishing evil-doers in the interests of general welfare, as was done by the Blessed Lord, is the first duty of saints from the point of view of Ethics.’ And the responsibility for the suffering that is caused thereby does not lie with the person who puts the evil out; it lies with the evil-doers. The Lord Himself says, Tilak recalls, ‘I give to them reward in the same manner and to the same extent that they worship Me.’ ‘In the same way,’ he says, ‘no one calls the Judge, who directs the execution of a criminal, the enemy of the criminal…’
Could the variance between two interpretations be greater than is the case between the Lokmanya’s Gita Rahasya and Gandhiji’s Anashakti Yoga? Yet both constructions are by great and devout Hindus. Are ordinary Hindus nailed to Gandhiji’s rendering? After all, at the end of the Gita, Arjuna does not go off to sit at one of our non-violent dharnas. He goes into blood-soaked battle.
The comforting mistake
The mistake is to assume that the sterner stance is something that has been fomented by this individual or that —in the case of Hindutva, by, say, Veer Savarkar — or by one organisation, say the RSS or the VHP. That is just a comforting mistake — the inference is that once that individual is calumnised, once that organisation is neutralised, ‘the problem’ will be over. Large numbers do not gravitate to this interpretation rather than that merely because an individual or an organisation has advanced it — after all, the interpretations that are available on the shelf far outnumber even the scriptures. They gravitate to the harsher rendering because events convince them that it alone will save them.
It is this tectonic shift in the Hindu mind, a shift that has been going on for 200 years, which is being underestimated. The thousand years of domination and savage oppression by rulers of other religions; domination and oppression which were exercised in the name of and for the glory of and for establishing the sway of those religions, evinced a variety of responses from the Hindus. Armed resistance for centuries… When at last such resistance became totally impossible, the revival of bhakti by the great poets… When public performance even of bhakti became perilous, sullen withdrawal, preserving the tradition by oneself, almost in secrecy: I remember being told in South Goa how families sustained their devotion by painting images of our gods and goddesses inside the tin trunks in which sheets and clothing were kept. The example of individuals: recall how the utter simplicity and manifest aura of Ramakrishna Paramhamsa negated the efforts of the missionaries, how his devotion to the image of the Goddess at Dakshineshwar restored respectability to the idolatry that the missionaries and others were traducing… The magnetism of Sri Aurobindo and Ramana Maharshi… Gandhiji’s incontestable greatness and the fact that it was so evidently rooted in his devotion to our religion…
Each of these stemmed much. But over the last 200 years the feeling has also swelled that, invaluable as these responses have been, they have not been enough. They did not prevent the country from being taken over. They did not shield the people from the cruelty of alien rulers. They did not prevent the conversion of millions. They did not prevent the tradition from being calumnised and being thrown on the defensive. They did not in the end save the country from being partitioned — from being partitioned in the name of religion…
There is a real vice here. The three great religions that originated in Palestine and Saudi Arabia — Judaism, Christianity and Islam — have been exclusivist — each has insisted that it alone is true — and aggressive. The Indic religions — Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism — have been inclusive, they have been indulgent of the claims of others. But how may the latter sort survive when it is confronted by one that aims at power, acquires it, and then uses it to enlarge its dominion? How is the Indic sort to survive when the other uses the sword as well as other resources — organised missionaries, money, the state — to proselytise and to convert? Nor is this question facing just the Hindus in India today. It is facing the adherents of Indic traditions wherever they are: look at the Hindus in Indonesia